Lawyer: Can you raise your right hand please?
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give (inaudible) so be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MJ: Yes.
L: Mr. Jackson, what is your occupation?
MJ: Entertainer... dancer, singer, songwriter...
L: How long...
MJ: Actor...
L: Excuse me. How long have you been an entertainer?
MJ: Since the age of five.
L: Without going into too much detail, could you tell me how you started as an entertainer?
MJ: Well, singing around the house... dancing... making noises... you know... sounds... Making my own rhythms, making my own music, singing... You know, that type of thing.
L: Did you, uh... at sometime start performing professionally?
MJ: At one point, yes.
L: Is that when you were still a child?
MJ: Yes.
L: “Do you remember about how old you were? When you started performing professionally?”
MJ: Umm... maybe 10 years old.
L: What was the name of the group you performed with when you first started?
MJ: The Jackson 5.
L: And who was in the Jackson 5?
MJ: Marlon, Tito, Jackie, Jermaine, Randy... Yeah, that’s it.
L: At some point did you become a solo performer?
MJ: Yes.
L: Do you remember about when that was?
MJ: Well, I did solo work before... songs like "Ben", "Got To Be There", you know, "Rockin’ Robin", "I Wanna Be Where You Are". All these are songs are solo songs while still with the Jackson 5, not meaning I’ve left the group.
L: You said one of your, uh... professions is a songwriter, when did you start writing songs?
MJ: I started writing songs... gee, as young as... I’d say 8 years old - 8 or 9.
L: Uh... have you had songs that you’ve written, recorded?
MJ: Some, yes.
L: Um, about how many songs that you’ve written, have been released?
MJ: Oh, boy, I’ve never counted, probably over 30, 40?
L: Uh... and again, without going into too much detail, have you ever won any awards?
MJ: Lots of awards.
L: Could you give me some of them?
MJ: Well, there’s Grammy Awards, there’s American Music Awards, there’s NAACP Awards, ummm... Black Caucus Awards... There’s all kinds of awards in my field.
Excuse me, I know that kills the... microphone man.
L: Let me ask you, Mr. Jackson... Is it the case that you haven’t been feeling well in the last few days?
MJ: Yes, that’s very true.
L: You had some... some oral surgery?
MJ: Yes.
L: If at any time you’re not feeling well or you’re uncomfortable, would you let me know and we’ll take a break?
MJ: I sure will.
L: Thanks. What was the first song that was released that you wrote? If you recall?
MJ: A song called “Blues Away” on one of The Jacksons’ albums.
L: Do you remember which one it was?
MJ: Uh... I think the album was called either "Goin' Places" or "Destiny". I’m not sure.
L: Have you done any albums as a solo artist?
MJ: Yes.
L: Can you name them for me, please?
MJ: "Ben", "Got To Be There", "Music and Me"... There are a couple of others on Motown, but I can’t think of any right now. Then there’s "Off The Wall", "Thriller", "Bad", "Dangerous".
L: Can you recall when the album "Off The Wall" came out?
MJ: 70 something, but I’m not positive.
L: See if I can refresh your recollection? I hope this is legal... if not we’ll move on again.
MJ: 79.
L: Do you recognize the document that I’m showing you?
MJ: Yes.
L: What is that?
MJ: The cover of "Off The Wall".
L: Did you write any, uh... of the songs on, that were included on the album “Off The Wall”?
MJ: Yes.
L: Which ones?
MJ: “Don’t Stop Til’ You Get Enough” and “Working Day And Night”. And I co-wrote one with uh... um, another musician, called “Get On The Floor”.
L: Who was that other musician?
MJ: His name is um... Oh, boy, I can’t think of his name right now.
L: Well, that’s okay. Did the group The Jacksons also do an album called “Triumph”?
MJ: “Triumph”, yes.
L: Do you recall when that was?
MJ: No.
L: Let me... take a look at this document.
MJ: I’m pretty bad with dates.
L: See if it... it’s okay. See if the document that I’m showing you refreshes your recollection? What is the document I’m showing you?
MJ: The Jacksons. It says “Triumph” 1980.
L: Is that, what is that? A cassette cover?
MJ: It’s a cassette cover.
L: Mr. Jackson, did you write any of the songs that appeared on the “Triumph” album?
MJ: Yes.
L: Which ones?
MJ: I co-wrote “Can You Feel It” with my brothers, um... “That’s What You Get For Being Polite” with my brother... "All Night" with my brother... ”Jack Still”, I think it was called, with my brother... I think there are a couple of others, I just can’t think of the names right now.
L: I’d like to turn, Mr. Jackson to, uh, generally how you write songs. Can you tell me what process you go through when... when you’re writing a song, if there is a general process?
MJ: Well, the process I go through is um... Songs kind of just come, they create themselves. Like I’ve said before. I’m just the source through which they come and it’s, it’s a beautiful thing. It’s very spiritual. It’s like standing under a tree and letting a leaf fall and trying to catch it - it’s that beautiful. And what I do is... It comes into my head - I could be walking along, you know, on a road or I could be sitting on a bench at Disneyland or something eating peanuts and there it is - it’s in my head or I could be in the shower... Or I can wake up, like I did when I wrote “We Are The World”. And there the song is - it’s right in, in my head. The entire composition, you know. That’s how it happens.
L: Once you have the song in your head, what do you do to next to get the song?
MJ: I go to a tape recorder and I put the sounds down. Orally, with my mouth, making sounds of how I want the bass or the strings or the drums or each part to go, the way I hear it. Because the key is to get exactly what you’re hearing in your head – on that tape.
L: You realize that one of the songs at issue in this lawsuit is a song called “The Girl Is Mine”? Are you aware of that?
MJ: Yes.
L: Who wrote “The Girl is Mine”?
MJ: I wrote “The Girl is Mine”.
L: What album did “The Girl Is Mine” appear on?
MJ: Sorry... That’s uh... sorry... The “Thriller” album.
L: Was it also released as a single?
MJ: Yes, it’s the first single off of “Thriller”.
L: The lyrics - what’s “The Girl Is Mine” about?
MJ: It’s about - it’s very simple: it’s two guys kind of quarreling over the same girl. Which happens. Saying 'no, she’s mine', 'no, she’s mine, she loves me okay?' You know, that type of thing. 'She always looks at me', that type of thing. They’re just quarreling over the same girl. That’s what it’s about.
L: How did you get the idea for that what you just described?
MJ: It just came, it just came. Quincy said to me, you know, ‘Write a song that you and Paul McCartney can sing together’. So I guess I went to sleep and when I woke up the next day there it was. And I ran to the tape recorder and I started to put down what I heard in my head.
L: You mentioned Quincy. Who’s Quincy?
MJ: Quincy Jones is a producer, songwriter... He’s a really great guy, he’s wonderful, I love him.
L: Have you worked with him before?
MJ: Yes.
L: When did you first work with him?
MJ: I first, um... I’m not positive, I think I was nine years old. Yeah, I was nine years old. I met him with Sammy Davis Jr. I think it was at Sammy’s house. And that’s when I first set eyes on him. And I never knew that we would end up working together professionally. And then we did “The Wiz” which was in New York City. And then, after “The Wiz”, we did an album called “Off the Wall”.
L: “The Wiz” was a motion picture?
MJ: Yes, Universal.
L: Now at some point, you made a tape recording of “The Girl is Mine”? A work tape?
MJ: Yes.
L: I’d like to play for you a document that’s previously been marked exhibit 489. And what I’ll do is give this to the reporter after we’re done so that he can hold in his custody. And I’ll just play a little bit at first, Mr. Jackson, and ask you to tell me whether you recognize exhibit 489.
My question is, I’m going to play exhibit 489 and again, Mr. Jackson, ask you whether you recognize it. I’ll just play a portion of it.
[on tape: Michael beat boxing and singing some words to “The Girl is Mine”]
L: Ok, I’m going to stop exhibit 489 for a moment and ask you, Mr. Jackson, whether you recognize that?
MJ: Yes, that’s me writing the parts to “The Girl is Mine”, creating it. Sorry.
L: What were the circumstances in which you started making exhibit 489?
MJ: Well, just a tape recorder there and making sounds like [beat boxing, singing: every night she walks right in my dreams...]
Prosecutor: Objection, objection.
MJ: [continues to sing: Says I met her from the start...]
P: I have an objection. I have an objection.
MJ: Well, that’s how I did it.
L: How, how did you, um... How did you come to um... You may have told me already but let me, but I don’t think you did. How did you come to get the song, the music on exhibit 489 in mind?
MJ: Like I’ve said before. Songs create themselves, it just come out of me. It just come from inside out. And I think I’m just a source through which it comes. And you asked me how I created and I started to perform to give you an example of how it’s done, of how I create songs and when I create my music I make these sounds. I wrote a song called “Who Is It”...
P: Objection!
L: Do you recall where you were when you, “The Girl is Mine”, the song “The Girl is Mine” came to you, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: I think I was at the Encino house or a condominium. Because we were rebuilding the Encino house and staying in a smaller place.
L: Uh, let me play for you a some more of exhibit 489. I’m going to stop it at some point and ask some more questions.
[MJ on tape beat boxing, singing along]
MJ: Yeah... that’s “The Girl is Mine”.
P: Objection!
[continues singing with tape]
P: Objection!
L: Ok. Can you show us what you were doing on that tape?
MJ: Yeah. [Starts singing: Every night she walks right in my dreams, says I met her from the start. I’m so proud I am the only one who is special in her heart. The girl is mine, the doggone girl is mine. [beat boxing] Don’t waste your time because the doggone girl is mine].
L: You were um... You were making some sounds with your mouth. What was the purpose of that?
MJ: The sounds are the rhythms that I make. I wrote a song on the “Dangerous” album called “Who Is It” and what I do is: I go to a tape recorder and I put down the sounds the way I’m hearing it in my head and I’m hearing the bass, I’m hearing the percussion, I’m hearing the drums. And the ‘Who Is It’... goes um... [starts beat boxing to “Who Is It”.]
P: Motion to strike. Move to strike.
MJ: That’s how it’s done. So what I do is: I go to a tape recorder and I just put exactly what I’m hearing in my head down on tape and that’s how I pretty much do it.
L: Would... would you briefly show us how you made the rhythm sounds on “The Girl is Mine” tape?
MJ: Sure. [beat boxing to “The Girl is Mine”] Like that.
L: I’d like to play...
MJ: The girl is mine... Sorry, my voice, I’m really hoarse. I had a concert last night, my throat is really bad.
P: Objection. Move to strike.
L: I’ll stop the tape. You were singing some lyrics and not others, is that right?
MJ: Pardon?
L: You were singing some lyrics but not others?
MJ: Yes.
L: Uh... Why was that?
MJ: Because certain words come into your head at a certain time, that are fitting for the melody... um. Certain words come with the melody at the same time that it’s created, you know. [Sings: Heal the world]. I mean, I didn’t think about it, it just came. [Sings: Make it a better place]. So it came with the melody. Heal the... I thought about it, wow, that’s nice: heal the world, let’s heal our planet.
L: Let me play some more of exhibit 489.
[Tape playing-some words, beat boxing and two groans]
L: I’ll stop there. You were making some noise where, where you just laughed. What were you doing there on “The Girl is Mine”?
MJ: I was doing a... I was imitating a moog bass where you play the bass on a keyboard, but you have this little - it’s like a stick where you can make noises [making the noises] like noises like that. [Sings: doon doon doon, doo dow] - like that.
L: Thank you.
[More of the tape is being played]
L: You were singing some high notes there.
P: Objection.
L: What were you singing right before I stopped the tape?
MJ: I’m singing what I hear over the chorus. Like a string part. [Imitates strings: da da da], [sings: the girl is mine].
[More of the tape is being played]
L: You just sang... You, you... Did you just hear some words on the tape?
MJ: Yeah, that part of the song I never used.
L: Why not?
MJ: Because it went in another direction. And I can tell by listening to that where it’s gonna go... it’s probably gonna go [sings: da da da da] - because it’s most likely going to go in that direction... I haven’t heard this since then.
[More of tape is being played]
MJ: There it is. [Sings: da da...]
P: Objection, there is no question before the witness.
MJ: I haven’t heard this in so long...
L: What part were you singing there, just before I stopped the tape?
MJ: Counter lines, musical counter lines that can go against the main part. [Sings: do do dah dum]. It could be a keyboard, it could be a flute, it could be a string part. It’s like a tapestry of sound which is what the law of music is.
L: Continue playing exhibit 489.
[MJ on tape: piano, it goes like this, it starts over; beatbox: doh dum... yeah]
L: What were you doing there? What was that?
MJ: Yeah, [Sings: doh dum] Creating another part that I heard... um, which I did do on the demo which I played myself.
L: But was there a particular musical instrument that...?
MJ: It’s a piano. [Imitating piano] It’s accenting... [Sings: doh dum...] like that...
[Tape starts playing again]
L: Okay, I’m just going to play more of exhibit 489, Mr. Jackson. Why don’t you wait for my question?
MJ: Ok.
[MJ on tape singing: strings, daa daa]
L: What did you say right there?
MJ: Strings.
L: And what...
MJ: [Sings: Daa daa daa] It’s the part that would go over a verse like a second verse, which would climax the song, which would build it.
L: Were you imitating a particular instrument when you made that sound?
MJ: Yes.
L: What?
MJ: Strings. I even said it, I go “Strings”, [Sings: daa daa]
L: I’m going to play more of exhibit 489.
[MJ on tape: piano; sings, beatboxing]
L: What did you just say on the tape?
MJ: I’m not positive, I think I said piano or something like that. What, what I’m doing now is creating...
L: Let me ask you, what are you doing now?
MJ: Okay, after creating the melody I’m now creating the different sounds that I want to go with the melody. What each instrument should do to create the song.
L: I’ll play more of exhibit 489.
[MJ on tape: strings; sings: dooooooooo]
MJ: [Whispers: strings]
L: What were you doing there?
MJ: Creating a French horn part, which I never used [sings: duh dum duh duh]
L: Thank you.
[MJ on tape: That’ll be soft horns]
MJ: See.
L: What did you just say there?
MJ: I just said that could be soft horns.
L: Continuing with exhibit 489
[MJ on tape: sings; saying: And don’t write the song, don’t write anything, let the song create itself.]
MJ: That’s my law.
L: Let me, let me back the tape up slightly.
MJ: That’s what I always say.
[MJ on tape: And don’t write the song, don’t write anything, let the song create itself, let the strings tell you what to do, where they should come, let the piano tell you what chords to hit. Whatever it feels like, let the bass tell you whatever it should be doing, everything. Let it create itself, let it form, let it do what it wants to do, don’t force up on the song, let the song force up on you. Let the song tell you where to go.]
L: What did you mean by what you said on the tape?
MJ: What I meant was: a song creates itself. I’m just the source through which it comes. It all creates itself. When a song comes to me I’m hearing the strings, I’m hearing the bass, I’m hearing the drums, I’m hearing... everything comes as a package. It’s like catching a leaf that falls from a tree, it’s the most spiritual, beautiful thing that can ever happen. And sometime I just get on my knees and I pray to God out of thankfulness that it happened, that it came to me. And that’s what I’m saying: let it, let it create itself, because it’s trying to create itself.
L: I’ll continue with exhibit 489.
[MJ on tape talking about voice harmony]
L: What did you say right there?
MJ: Some type of harmony part. On [sings: the girl is mine, doooo doooo...] what I’m trying to do is... What I’m, what I’m hearing in my head is some type of counter line to build the chorus. Because in song writing you should go from the verse to the chorus and when the chorus comes it should be like a flower blossoming in your face. So to build that and to make that happen you have to add in other sounds to make it refreshing and wonderful. So that’s all that is.
L: What’s the bridge of a song?
MJ: [Sings: I love you more than he]
P: Objection.
L: I was asking a more general question. What is a bridge?
MJ: What is a bridge?
L: Yes.
MJ: A bridge... What a bridge is to take you from A to B. It is to take you from the verse to another part. It is escapism, from hearing the same mundane trivial, ordinary thing that you’ve been hearing all the time. Cause the ear gets tired of hearing the same sounds, what a bridge does, it takes you away from all of that. Then when it finally comes back to what you were doing before it’s stronger. It’s much stronger. It has...
L: Does “The Girl...” I’m sorry, finish your...
MJ: It has a much stronger effect.
L: Does the song “The Girl is Mine” have a bridge?
MJ: Yes, it does.
L: Could you sing that for us?
MJ: It goes... [Sings: I love you more than he - take you anywhere, well I love you endlessly - loving we will share. So come and go with me out on the town. But we both cannot have her, so it’s one or the other and one day you’ll discover is that she’s my girl forever. Don’t build your hopes to be let down, cause I really feel it’s time, that she tell you I’m the one for her]. That type of thing.
L: Let me continue, Mr. Jackson, with exhibit 489 and I will ask you a question at some point.
[MJ on tape: singing; saying: Here’s another bridge part. Singing]
L: The segment that I just played for you there, what were you doing there?
MJ: Creating... or discovering I should say. Because I try not to invent, I try to discover what’s there and I’m discovering where the song wants to go. And it’s the bridge, it’s the bridge of the song, it’s these changes that, it reminds me of a song that I just wrote recently called ‘Stranger In Moscow’ in Russia. And I went through the same thing, in trying to dictate into a microphone what your hearing in your head, it’s very difficult sometime because you can’t... You only have one voice, but you’re hearing full chords, so it’s a very difficult thing to do, but you just do it your best.
L: What’s a chord, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: What’s a chord?
L: In music.
MJ: A chord is harmony, it’s sound that’s pleasant, something that can be pleasant to the ear, music.
L: Let me just state for the record, I’m playing exhibit 489. And at some point I will ask you a question about it, Mr. Jackson.
[MJ singing on tape; saying: The chords of the bridge is]
L: What, what did you just say there?
MJ: I’m saying the chords to the bridge. I’m now just bringing out what I think the chords just defining in my head, what the chords should do to accompany the melody. So... which is, which is very important.
L: I’ll play some more from exhibit 489.
[MJ singing on tape]
L: Mr. Jackson, what were you doing there?
MJ: I’m making background sounds, which I did on the demo, which is just one of the notes [sings: aaaaa; sings a bit higher: aaaa], just the harmony part. I think there is like six different harmony notes, that’s just one of six.”
L: I’ll play further from exhibit 489.
[MJ singing on tape]
L: What were you doing there?
MJ: Same thing, it’s... It’s a harmony part that goes against the other harmony. I’m creating different notes which are harmonics to go against the music. I’m creating all the harmonies and all the sounds, each individual sound which make up the whole of “The Girl Is Mine”.
L: Play further from exhibit 489.
[MJ on tape: When the song first kicks off I can hear some horns in the song, for instance this is how the music goes; beatboxing, singing]
L: What were you doing there?
MJ: Creating what I heard at the time, uh... French horns, which are soft horns, which I felt should have gone at the time, in the beginning of the song [singing]. That type of thing.
[MJ on tape singing]
L: What part of the song is it that have we just heard?
MJ: You just heard the bridge.
[MJ on tape: She can go with me out on the town…]
MJ: There it is.
L: What did you just hear?
MJ: There it is. That’s what I was looking for. It’s the fire that builds, coming out of the bridge. [Sings: but we both cannot have her so it’s one or the other. And one day you’ll discover is that she’s my girl forever and ever. Don’t build your hopes to be let...]. So it’s coming out of the bridge.
[More tape being played]
L: Are you okay, Mr. Jackson? You want to take a break?
MJ: No, my mouth hurts.
[break]
L: Mr. Jackson, at the break did you find it necessary to take pain medication?
MJ: Do I find it necessary?
L: Did you, at the break, did... Did you have to take a pain medication for your pain?
MJ: Yes.
L: I real quickly want to ask you about a cassette tape that’s been previously marked as exhibit number 492. An exhibit that I’ll give to the court reporter in completion of the deposition or a break. I just want to play a portion of it and ask you whether you recognize exhibit 492.
[On the tape: the demo of “The Girl Is Mine.”]
L: I’ll stop it there. Mr. Jackson, do you recognize exhibit 492?
MJ: Yes.
L: What is it?
MJ: That’s my original demo of ‘The Girl is Mine.’
L: Does that demo use any of the material that you sung when you created the work tape?
MJ: Yes.
L: After you did the demo for “The Girl Is Mine”, what happened next? In connection with the song?
MJ: After that, I played it for Quincy, and he loved it, he thought it was perfect for Paul and I. And we play it for Pau in Arizona and Paul loved it and we recorded it.
L: Was it commercially released?
MJ: Yes.
L: Did anyone make any changes in the studio?
MJ: Were there any changes from that?
L: Uh, yeah.
MJ: Other than that? Uh, yes.
L: What?
MJ: There was a guitar lick that’s different, that was added.
L: Any changes to the bridge?
MJ: Yes, the bridge was extended a little.
L: Who suggested that?
MJ: I think it was Quincy, I think.
L: Mr. Jackson, before this lawsuit was filled... Before this lawsuit was filled, did you ever hear of a song called “Happy Go Lucky Girl”?
MJ: No.
L: When you wrote “The Girl Is Mine”, did you copy from anyone else’s song?
MJ: No.
L: Was “The Girl Is Mine” written by you and you alone?
MJ: Written by me and me alone.
L: Before we go into the next song that we’re going to talk about, I’d like to ask you some questions. Do you know anybody by the name of Robert Smith?
MJ: I’ve heard the name.
L: Where did you hear the name?
MJ: I don’t know.
L: Do you know anybody named Clifford Ruben?
MJ: Doesn’t ring any bells.
L: Do you know Raynard Jones?
MJ: Yes.
L: How do you know Raynard Jones?
MJ: Friend of my brothers, I think, over the years or something.
L: Do you consider him a friend of yours?
MJ: No.
L: Why not?
MJ: Well, a friend wouldn’t do this, would he?
L: How about in the early years, did you ever think he was a friend of yours?
MJ: Not really, he was, he’s not my age. I mean he hung out with my brothers. He’s much older than I am.
L: Over the years did Raynard Jones ever visit your family?
MJ: Yes.
L: Under what circumstances?
MJ: Hello – goodbye.
L: Do you ever recall Raynard Jones playing you songs in your studio in Encino?
MJ: No.
L: Did you ever copy any songs provided to you by Raynard Jones?
MJ: No.
L: Did you ever copy any songs written by Robert Smith?
MJ: No.
L: I’d like you to talk now about the song “Thriller”. Are you familiar with the song “Thriller”?
MJ: Yes.
L: Who wrote “Thriller”, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: A guy named Rod Temperton.
L: Did you have any role in connection with the song “Thriller” at all?
MJ: I sang “Thriller”.
L: Did you have any role in writing the song?
MJ: No.
L: When did you first hear the song “Thriller”?
MJ: I first heard the song, it was called... It was a different title. I heard it in Encino, at my house in Encino. It was under a different title.
L: What was that title?
MJ: “Starlight Sun”.
L: And who brought you the song under that different title?
MJ: Rod Temperton.
L: Did he come to your studio, did he come to your house alone or was he with someone?
MJ: He came with Quincy.
L: Before Rod Temperton brought you this demo of “Starlight”, did you have any contact in connection with the song “Starlight”?
MJ: No.
L: When he got to your house, what did Mr. Temperton do, in connection with the song “Thriller”?
MJ: He had... He came with a keyboard machine. And I kind of admired the way he worked. He had all of the sounds already programmed inside the machine. So when he midid the sounds to another keyboard or to a main board that’s in the studio, which is the audio board, they would play the sounds and the performance that he had performed somewhere else, it could have been Switzerland or Germany. So all the parts were there, inside that machine done and performed already.
L: At some point did you learn the song “Thriller” or “Starlight” at the time? Let me withdraw that. At sometime did you learn the song “Starlight”?
MJ: Yes.
L: How did you learn it?
MJ: He just sang. Well, he... he sings on a tape and it’s his voice singing against a demo.
L: And again, what was the name of the song when it was on that demo?
MJ: “Starlight Sun”.
L: In your performance of what would eventually become “Thriller”, did you make any changes in connection with your performance in the music?
MJ: Not that I can think of.
L: Did you play any role whatsoever in writing the music underlying the lyrics that go “It’s close to midnight and something evil’s lurking in the dark”?
MJ: No.
L: Who wrote the lyrics for “Thriller”?
MJ: Rod Temperton.
L: Who has writing credit for “Thriller”?
MJ: Rod Temperton.
L: Did you get any writing credit for “Thriller”?
MJ: No.
L: Before this, before this lawsuit... Before this lawsuit did you ever hear of a song entitled “Run On Man Child”?
MJ: No.
L: At anytime, Mr. Jackson, did you give Rod Temperton music from someone else that Rod Temperton could put that music in “Thriller”?
MJ: No.
L: Turning to another subject, do you realize that Joseph Jackson is one of the defendants in this case?
MJ: I heard.
L: Who’s Joseph Jackson?
MJ: My father.
L: At anytime, in your professional career, has Joseph Jackson ever provided music that you or your group would perform for recording purposes?
MJ: Repeat your question?
L: Yeah. At anytime during your professional career, has Joseph Jackson had any role in selecting the songs that you or your group would perform?
MJ: No.
L: Did Joseph Jackson ever give you music written by Raynard Jones?
MJ: No.
L: Did he ever give you any music written by Robert Smith or Clifford Ruben?
MJ: No.
L: Joseph Jackson have any role in creating Rod Temperton’s “Thriller”?
MJ: No.
L: Finally I would like to turn to “We Are The World”. Who wrote the song “We Are The World”, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: I wrote “We Are The World” and Lionel Richie also helped.
L: How did you become involved with “We Are The World”?
MJ: Quincy Jones called me on the phone, I was in my bedroom in Encino and he said “Smelly...”, he calls me Smelly. He said “Smelly, we need a song for the children of the world. There are a lot of children dying, and I want you and Lionel Richie to go in and write a song. I asked Stevie Wonder to write a song but it’s taking him quite sometime. You know how Stevie is", he said. He said, “He’s brilliant but it takes him quite, quite awhile to get going.” I said, “Quincy, I just finished ‘Thriller’, I just spent all that time in the studio. I don’t feel like it.” And he said, “But it would be very important for the children.” As soon as he said that he know how I feel about children and how important that is to me so I said “I’ll do it.” And so I got together with Lionel. And we got together and goofed off for two days doing nothing, just making fun of each other and being silly because we go way back since I was like 8 years old or something.
L: How did you meet Lionel Richie?
MJ: He used to open up for my group, The Jackson 5, on our early tours as The Commodores and then after he would perform, he would go out in front and hold the fans back. So he was like a bodyguard at the same time, in front of the stage, holding back all of the kids. So we had a pretty good relationship and we laugh about old times. So we had a lot of catching up to do. So we talked and laughed and threw things at each other and joked around and didn’t get anything done. Then on the third day, I think it was the third day, I woke up with this melody in my head.
L: Did Mr. Richie bring you any melody at any time?
MJ: Yes, Lionel brought something to me. He had something in his head that he had as well.
L: What was that?
MJ: Um...
L: Can you sing it?
MJ: Yes, he had... I think he played it on tape and he sang it to me. This is what he played... He, he said “This is all I have and I hope you like it”. It went [sings] And that was it.
L: Did you like it?
MJ: Yes, I said, “that’s nice”.
L: And then what happened?
MJ: I said “Well, listen to this” and I played him what I... No, that’s not what happened. I said “I have something in my head that I have as well”, I said. “But I want to go in the studio and put it all together first and then I’ll let you hear it.” So I went in the studio and put all the sounds down [sings: There comes a time when we hear a certain call... da da dum] The whole thing, the bridge and...
L: Could you briefly demonstrate how you went through that creative... Well, let me back that up. Did you ever put what your ideas for “We Are The World” into a tape recorder?
MJ: Yes, I did.
L: Do you know where that tape is?
MJ: No, I never keep up with my tapes. I’m not organized in that way.
L: Can you demonstrate for us just briefly how you created some of the music that you created for “We Are The World”?
MJ: Okay. I strongly remember getting on my knees and praying to God thanking him for the melody that came into my head cause I was pleased with it when I woke up the next morning, I said “This is so lovely” and I went to the tape recorder and I put down. And it was [sings] Then I put in that part [sings].
L: When you say that part, that part that...?
MJ: Which is the part that, that Lionel brought... [continues to sing]. Then I added again [continues to sing] which is the part I added on [sings].
L: Did you also work on the harmony?
MJ: The harmonies... I did just the way I did “The Girl is Mine”, no different. I did the strings and I did the bass and I did the chords and the bridge the same way. The same law, in letting it create itself.
L: Did you eventually make a demo of “We Are The World”?
MJ: Yes, I did.
L: Do you remember where that was?
MJ: I can’t find that tape to this day. I wish I knew where it was, because I’d like to hear it just to have some laughs.
L: Did you go to a studio to make the demo?
MJ: Yeah, it was a studio in the valley.
L: Was there an engineer there?
MJ: Yes.
L: Was there... Let me back up. What was the name of the studio, do you recall?
MJ: [looking at someone beside him, asking about water: Is this for you or for me? Thanks]. Red Wing. I think that was the name of it.
L: Do you recall what the engineer did? Wait, wait... Let me back up. Was there an engineer?
MJ: Yes.
L: What happened next? Well, let me stop. Let me play you just a brief portion of a tape marked exhibit 486 previously identified.
[MJ singing on tape: And it seems no hope at all. If you just believe there’s no where we can fall]
MJ: That’s, that’s the bridge.
[On tape: MJ and Lionel Richie talking]
L: Do you recognize exhibit 486, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: Yes.
L: What is it?
MJ: That’s the bridge to “We Are The World”.
L: Do you hear anybody talking on the tape?
MJ: Sounds like Lionel.
L: Let me play you a little bit more, just a little bit more.
[MJ & Lionel talking on tape. MJ singing on tape]
L: You were also on that tape?
MJ: Yes.
L: How did you come to create exhibit 486, this tape?
MJ: How did I create it?
L: Yeah, how did... How did it happen that what was going on was being taped?
MJ: By just at some point I said “I just want to tape some of what we’re doing, so we can just have it”, you know.
L: What were you and Mr. Richie doing on that tape?
MJ: Singing, goofing off.
L: Were you writing any of the song at that time?
MJ: Not really, we kind of goof off a lot.
L: I’ll play you a little more.
[On tape MJ & Lionel singing: “As God has shown us by turning stones to bread so we all must lend a helping hand. We are the world, we are the children... so let’s start giving. There’s a chance we’re taking, we’re taking our own lives. It’s true we make a brighter day, just you and me. 2, 3, 4, When your down and out, there seems no hope at all, but if you just believe there’s no way we can fall and the only way... and the only... and... the only truth...]
L: We’re playing just a little more, does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you and Mr. Richie were working on any part of the song?
MJ: Yes. We were... I... I was reciting the bridge.
L: Let me play just a little bit more.
[On tape singing: Lionel: Let us understand... MJ: Let us understand...]
[MJ putting microphone on shirt, asking the microphone man:“Is that right? How about there?]
L: Can you tell me now, listening to more, whether you or Mr. Richie were working on any part of “We Are The World”?
MJ: Yes, working on, um... I don’t know if it was the lyrics or what... I think the lyrics we kind of fooled around with the lyrics afterward, we’re creating the melody.
L: Mr. Jackson, before this lawsuit was filled, did you ever hear of a song called “What Will Become Of The Children”?
MJ: No.
L: Did you copy anyone’s song in writing “We Are The World”?
MJ: No.
L: Did Mr. Richie?
MJ: No.
L: Did you and Lionel Richie together and with no one else, write “We Are The World”?
MJ: Say that again?
L: Yes, did you and Mr. Richie and only you and Mr. Richie write “We Are The World”?
MJ: That’s the truth.
L: I have no further questions.
Prosecutor: Would you please state your name?
MJ: Michael Joseph Jackson.
P: Mr. Jackson, will you spell your last name?
MJ: J-A-C-K-S-O-N.
P: Mr. Jackson, do you know a person by the name of Raynard Jones?
MJ: I’ve heard of the name Raynard Jones.
P: Have you simply heard of it or do you know the person?
MJ: Do I know the person, I’ve met him.
P: When did you first meet him?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: How long have you known him?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Did you first meet him in Los Angeles?
MJ: No.
P: Did you first meet him in Detroit?
MJ: No.
P: Did you first meet him in New York?
MJ: No.
P: Where did you first meet him?
MJ: I think Indiana.
P: What part of Indiana?
MJ: I think Gary, Indiana.
P: Did you live in Gary, Indiana at one time?
MJ: Yes.
P: Were you in fact born in Gary, Indiana?
MJ: Yes.
P: Under what circumstances did you meet Raynard Jones?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: But you did meet him in Gary, Indiana, that’s your recollection, is that correct?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. But you don’t recall under what circumstances you met him, is that correct?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: You don’t know what? You don’t know what, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: Under what circumstances.
P: OK. Have you ever discussed music and songs with Raynard Jones?
MJ: Not that I remember.
P: Is it that you have not discussed music or songs with Raynard Jones or is it that you don’t remember whether you discussed songs and music with Raynard Jones?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: What? What is it that you don’t remember?
MJ: Discussing music or songs with Raynard Jones.
P: Ok. Do you recall ever having any conversations with Raynard Jones?
MJ: Yes.
P: Approximately how many conversations do you recall that you had with Raynard Jones?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: Ok. Are they too numerous to recall?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: So, they may be too numerous for you to recall, is that right?
MJ: No.
P: You just don’t recall?
MJ: I don’t recall.
P: Would it have been more than five?
MJ: Could be?
P: More than ten?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: More than fifteen?
MJ: I’m not sure. I’m not sure.
P: Do you know where any of these conversations took place?
MJ: No.
P: Do you know whether anyone else was present when these conversations took place?
MJ: No.
P: Have you ever rehearsed any songs with Raynard Jones in any location?
MJ: Yes.
P: Where?
MJ: I think at his house.
P: And where would that have been?
MJ: In Indiana.
P: At Gary, Indiana?
MJ: Yes.
P: About how many occasions did you rehearse songs with Raynard Jones at this house in Gary, Indiana?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: On the occasions that you rehearsed songs with Raynard Jones at his house in Gary, Indiana, did you also discuss those songs with him?
MJ: No.
P: You just rehearsed, is that correct?
MJ: As I remember.
P: As you remember what?
MJ: What you just said.
P: As you remember you just rehearsed and did not discuss songs?
MJ: Yes.
P: When you were growing up in Gary, Indiana, did you ever perform at Roosevelt High School?
MJ: Yes.
P: Did you ever perform with Raynard Jones at Roosevelt High School?
MJ: Yes.
P: Has Raynard Jones ever visited with you outside of Gary, Indiana?
MJ: I think he came to California.
P: And did he ever visit with you and or other members of your family at your resident on Hayvenhurst?
MJ: Yes.
P: Do you recall about how many times he did that?
MJ: No.
P: Mr. Jackson, do you ever recall whether Raynard Jones visited at your property on Hayvenhurst while you were there?
MJ: I’m not positive.
P: Did he or did he not visit while you were there?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Do you recall Raynard Jones visiting the Hayvenhurst property accompanied by two other individuals?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: Is it your testimony that Mr. Jones never visited the Hayvenhurst property while you were present?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Alright. Other than Motown, did you sign with any other record company?
MJ: No.
P: Is it your testimony today, that you didn’t sign a contract with CBS records?
MJ: Did I sign with CBS records, is that what you’re asking me?
P: That was the question.
MJ: Yes.
P: When was that?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Did your father have anything to do with the signing of the contract with CBS records?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: You’re not sure whether he was involved in any manner?
MJ: Yes.
P: OK, let me ask you this question. Was your father, to your knowledge, involved in any manner or form in the signing of the contract between you, your brothers and CBS?
MJ: Yes.
P: In what way?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: Now, you know that he was involved but you don’t know in what way he was involved?
MJ: Exactly.
P: Mr. Jackson, do you have or have you ever had a collection of musical materials?
MJ: A collection of musical materials?
P: Yes, or a collection?
MJ: I love going to the record store, buy records.
P: I’m sorry?
MJ: I love going to the record store, to buy records.
P: The question to you is, did you at any time have a collection of musical materials?
MJ: A collection that I buy from the music store.
P: OK, did that collection include material from any other source other than the material that you purchased from a music store?
MJ: No.
P: When did you first begin keeping this collection?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Mr. Jackson, the collection... Have you ever maintained a collection of musical materials that included unreleased songs?
MJ: That I’ve written.
P: Have you ever maintained a musical collection that contained unreleased songs written by anyone else?
MJ: No.
P: In 1977 did you maintain a collection of musical materials?
MJ: My favorite record store is Tower Records. I collect cassettes and CDs from Tower Records.
P to the court reporter: Could you read back my last question please?
Reporter:“Question: In 1977, did you maintain a collection of musical materials?"
MJ: Same answer.
P: Yes or no? Did you or didn’t you? Did you?
MJ: No.
P: You didn’t maintain a collection in 1977? Is that right?
MJ: Music that I buy from the record store.
P: So you in 1977 you maintain a collection of music which you purchased from a record store? Is that right?
MJ: Seventy-seven, seventy-eight, seventy-nine, seventy-six... It’s part of, I love music, I buy records.
P: So you did maintain a collection of songs that you purchased from from a music store, right? In 1977?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. Where did you keep your musical materials that you purchased from the music store?
MJ: Everywhere.
P: There’s no particular location?
MJ: No.
P: They was thrown everywhere, is that it?
MJ: Thrown about. I’m not organized in that way.
P: Did you ever receive in the mail cassettes with songs on them from other people?
MJ: No.
P: Is there anything in your musical collection which you did not create?
MJ: Of course.
P: Is it your testimony, Mr. Jackson, that during the period of 1975 to 1985, that you never received cassettes with songs on them, through the mail from other people?
MJ: Not that I remember.
P: Have you ever during the period in question, Mr. Jackson, received cassettes and lead sheets, and or lead sheets from any other person?
MJ: Repeat that question.
Reporter: Question: Have you ever, during the period in question, Mr. Jackson, received cassettes and lead sheets, and or lead sheets to any other person?
MJ: During what period?
P: 1977 to 1985.
MJ: No.
P: Prior to 1977, did you receive cassettes or lead sheets in the mail from other persons?
MJ: No.
P: Subsequent to 1985 have you received cassettes and lead sheets from individuals through the mail?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Ok. Is it your testimony, Mr. Jackson, that you have never received cassettes and lead sheets through the mail from other individuals?
MJ: No.
P: Is that your testimony?
MJ: That’s my testimony.
P: Your testimony is that you have not?
MJ: I have not.
P: Mr. Jackson, I will refer you once again to your deposition dated October 19, 1989, refer you to page 138. Question in line 23: “Do you receive material from other songwriters?” Answer at line 25: “Do I?” Continuing on 139, line 1, Question: “Yes?” line 2, “I used to.”
MJ: Songs that I’ve recorded.
P: The material that you received in the mail, cassettes or lead sheets what did you do with them?
MJ: I just don’t remember getting things in the mail.
P: Draw your attention to page 139 of your deposition volume 1, line 25, Question: “Would you receive tapes in the mail, or lead sheets in the mail, or lyric sheets in the mail or realer reel tapes in the mail?” Answer on page 140 line 3, ‘Yes, but no, I wouldn’t dare take the time to listen, I just throw them away.'
P: If that’s what you said, is that what you did?
MJ: Yes.
P: So, you did receive cassettes and lead sheets in the mail from other people, is that correct?
MJ: I’m foggy on that, I don’t quite remember.
P: Now, when you would receive these materials in the mail, would you throw them away?
MJ: If I got any songs in the mail, I would never listen to them.
P: My question to you is, the songs that you receive in the mail, did you throw them away?
MJ: Absolutely.
P: And how did you get rid of them?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Is it your testimony, that while you receive cassettes of songs in the mail, that you never listened to those cassettes?
MJ: Repeat your question?
Reporter: Question: Is it your testimony, that while you receive cassettes of songs in the mail, that you never listened to those cassettes?
[telefon rings, cut]
P: I believe I had a question before the witness, will the reporter read that question back please?
Reporter: “Question: Is it your testimony, that while you receive cassettes of songs in the mail, that you never listened to those cassettes?”
MJ: Any cassettes that come to me personally in the mail which is very rare I throw them away and our policy of tapes that come to the office that are songs, written by other people we simply send them back. If I’m on the street, if I’m in a record store and somebody has a song and he comes up to me and says “Michael, I’m a songwriter, I want to make it just like you! Listen to my song!” I’d say, “I can’t take your tape.” I simply do not take tapes. I’m a songwriter myself, I write my own songs. I don’t have to take other people's songs.
P: My question to you is it true that the songs that you receive in the mail that you did not listen to them?
MJ: I do not listen to them.
P: Mr. Jackson, does the collection you have consist of songs, that you’ve started, that you didn’t like, but you didn’t like and you let them go or you dropped them?
MJ: There are certain songs that I have, that I’ve written that I just think aren’t good enough, or I like it at the time, then something will come along that’ll beat that song out that’ll be stronger to me so I’ll just leave that song there. It’s just there.
P: So, your answer is yes?
MJ: Yes to what?
P: To the question.
MJ: What’s the question?
P: Please read it back.
MJ: I’m sorry.
Reporter: Question: Mr. Jackson, does the collection you have, consist of songs, that you’ve started, that you didn’t like, but you didn’t like, and you let them go or you dropped them?
MJ: Let them go? I don’t understand the terminology you’re using. Can you rephrase it?
P: What does your collection consist of?
MJ: Songs that I’ve written?
P: My question is what does your collection consist of?
MJ: I’m trying so hard to answer, you mean the songs that I’ve written?
P: No, my question, no, no. My question to you is you have a collection? What does the collection consist of?
MJ: Glen Campbell, Jonny Mathis, The Carpenters, The Eagles, who else do I like? Stevie Wonder, I love the Bee Gees, I love James Brown, Aretha Franklin, all the old Motown stuff from the 60s, do you want me to keep going?
P: Well, if you choose too.
MJ: Um, okay. What else... I love Herman’s Hermit’s, I love The Beatles I love a lot... The Sherman Brothers who I think are very good. Who else do I like? I said Stevie Wonder. That’s all I can think of right now.
P: Are any of the songs that you worked on, your personal songs, included in your collection?
MJ: Now that’s what I was asking you before. Now, could you repeat your question?
P: Read the question back.
Reporter: Which question?
P: My last question, which is probably the one that you read previously.
Reporter: Question: Mr. Jackson, does the collection you have, consist of songs, that you’ve started, that you didn’t like, but you didn’t like, and you let them go or you dropped them?
MJ: Let them go? I just don’t understand what that means.
P: Mr. Jackson, I call your attention to Volume 1 of your deposition taken October, 19, 1989, page 129. Question at line 6: “What does your collection consist of?” Answer line 7, “Songs that I work on, songs that I have started, and didn’t like it that much so I just let it go. And there is just classical music I buy like a great song that I enjoy listening to, show tunes, Rodgers and Hammerstien, Chuck Berry.” Do you recall that question and giving that answer?
MJ: That sounds like me.
P: My question is, do you recall that question and do you recall giving that answer?
MJ: No.
P: So then what is the answer contained in your deposition, is that accurate or not?
MJ: It sounds accurate.
P: Ok. And did you give that answer?
MJ: It sounds like something I would have said.
P: My question to you is: did you give that answer?
L: Objection!
MJ: Yes.
P: I’m sorry?
MJ: Yes.
P: So, you gave that answer?
MJ: Yes.
P: Alright.
MJ: I forgot Rodgers and Hammerstein, I love them.
P: Now, with regard to your collection, other than what you’ve already testified to does that collection include the works of any other party or person?
MJ: The works of any other party or person? Yes, I like...
P: No, I’m not asking about what you like, I’m asking you about what’s included in your collection. You’ve told us a number, you’ve mentioned a number of names, individuals, groups.
MJ: Yes.
P: Including songs that you work on, that are included in your collection, is that right?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. Are there any other persons whose works that you have not mentioned are included in your collection?
MJ: No.
P: Is it true, Mr. Jackson, that you started to sing “The Girl Is Mine” into a tape recorder?
MJ: Yes.
P: And have we heard that tape today?
MJ: Yes.
P: Mr. Jackson, you’ve indicated that you started to sing “The Girl Is Mine” into a tape recorder, is that correct?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. And you have also testified that we have heard that tape today, is that correct?
MJ: Yes.
P: And is that exhibit 489?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: Now, Mr. Jackson, is that the original tape that you made for “The Girl is Mine”, exhibit 489 that you’ve heard? Is that an accurate description or depiction of the of the original tape that you made for “The Girl Is Mine”?
MJ: Sounds like it to me.
P: Ok. How long have you had that tape?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: I’m sorry, I couldn’t hear you.
MJ: I don’t’ remember.
P: Was there a time when that tape was lost?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Was there a time when you didn’t know where that tape was?
MJ: Don’t remember.
P: Sorry?
MJ: Don’t remember.
P: Mr. Jackson, I call your attention to your deposition taken October 19, 1989, page 128, question line 20: “When you say there it was, what do you mean by that?” Answer at line 22: “I started to sing in a tape recorder”. Line 23 question: “Do you still have that tape?” Line 24 answer: “I don’t have it personally, it’s somewhere.” to page 129, question: “Do you know where it is?” Line 2, answer: ”No.” Do you recall those questions being asked and your giving those answers in your deposition taken on October 19, 1989?
MJ: No.
P: Do you recall the Question on page 129 “You don’t know who has it?” Answer at line 4 “No, it must be in my collection somewhere at home.”, do you recall and that question and that answer?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: What is it that you don’t remember?
MJ: What you just asked.
P: You don’t remember saying that you don’t know who has it?
MJ: Repeat your question.
P: You don’t remember saying you don’t know who has it?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: You don’t remember saying that?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: You don’t remember saying that?
MJ: That’s right.
P: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.
MJ: Yes.
P: Do you remember saying in the answer to the question, “Do you know where it is?”, “No”? Do you recall that answer?
MJ: No.
P: Mr. Jackson, with regard to the songs that you received in the mail from other people, did you return those songs?
MJ: I answered that question.
P: My question to you is did you return the song, any of the songs that you receive in the mail?
MJ: I throw them away.
P: Did you keep a log of any kind or record of any of the tapes that you receive in the mail?
MJ: No.
[cut for 6 minutes]
P: Do you also consider Mr. Jones to be disloyal?
MJ: Yes.
P: Do you feel that Mr. Jones owes you some loyalty?
MJ: I think he owes honesty.
P: Would you say that you also owe honesty?
MJ: I’m being very honest.
P: That’s not my question. Do you feel that you owe honesty?
MJ: I am honest.
P: So, then, when you say is it your... Is it your testimony that Mr. Jones is dishonest?
MJ: Absolutely.
P: Why do you say that he is dishonest?
MJ: Because he knows in his heart that he didn’t write those songs.
P: Which songs are you referring to?
MJ: The songs that you are referring to.
P: The question is, which songs are you referring to, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: “The Girl is Mine”, “We Are The World” and “Thriller”.
P: So, is it your testimony that Raynard Jones is claiming that he wrote “The Girl Is Mine”?
MJ: Yes.
P: Is it your testimony that Mr. Jones is saying that he wrote “We Are The World”?
MJ: Yes.
P: Is it your testimony that Mr. Jones is saying that he wrote “Thriller”?
MJ: Yes.
P: And is it on that basis that you conclude that Mr. Jones is dishonest, is that correct?
MJ: Absolutely.
P: In October of 1989 did you discuss this lawsuit with Bill Bray?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: By the way, who is Bill Bray?
MJ: He’s head of security.
P: For whom?
MJ: For MJJ Productions.
P: And who is MJJ Productions?
MJ: My company.
P: Ok. What does MJJ Productions do?
MJ: It’s an office that administrates my personal affairs.
P: How long and is Mr. Bray is employed by MJJ Productions?
MJ: Oh, I wouldn’t know.
P: But he works for MJJ Productions?
MJ: Yes, he does.
P: And so he’s working for MJJ Productions is it your contention that that’s different from him being employed by MJJ Productions?
MJ: What’s your question?
P: You said he works for MJJ Productions, is that right?
MJ: Yes.
P: Previously I asked, was he employed by MJJ Productions do you recall that question?
MJ: Yes.
P: Do you recall what your answer was?
MJ: What was the answer?
P: I’m asking you the question, do you recall?
MJ: Yes.
P: What was the answer?
MJ: Was he employed by MJJ Productions.
P: That was the question.
MJ: The answer is yes.
P: How long has Mr. Bray been employed by MJJ Productions?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Prior to your move to California or after?
MJ: I’m really not sure.
P: Is it your testimony that you don’t recall the conversation with Bill Bray concerning Raynard Jones and this particular lawsuit in October of 1989?
MJ: No.
P: Did you ever talk to Bill Bray about the deposition that you gave on October the 19th, 1989?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Do you recall at the deposition taken on October 19, 1989 that this question, page 17, line 2 “Anybody else, other than your lawyers, that you talked to, about this deposition today?” Answer line 4: “Security.” Question line 5: ”Who is that?” Answer, line 6: “Bill Bray and some of the guys of studio.” Question in line 7: “What did you talk to Bill Bray about?” Do you recall those questions and giving those answers?
MJ: No.
P: Did you answer the questions as I’ve read them to you on October 19, 1989?
MJ: I must have.
P: Do you recall the nature of your conversation with Bill Bray concerning this lawsuit in your deposition on October, 1989?
MJ: No.
P: Do you recall this question on page 17 of your deposition taken on October, 1989, line 7: “What did you talk to Bill Bray about?” Answer, line 8: “The nature of the conversation was Bill was very disappointed this is happening, so was I because it’s very sad because it’s not true.” Do you recall those questions and those answers?
MJ: No.
P: Did you give that answer cuting at line 8, page 17, through line 10, at your deposition on October the 19th?
MJ: I must have.
P: To your knowledge does Bill Bray know Raynard Jones?
MJ: Pardon?
P: To your knowledge does Bill Bray know Raynard Jones?
MJ: Do I have knowledge that Bill knows Raynard Jones?
P: My question was... To your knowledge...
MJ: Oh...
P: Does Bill Bray...
MJ: Oh...
P: Know Raynard Jones?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Have you ever been in the presence of Bill Bray and Raynard Jones at the same time?
MJ: Not that I can remember.
P: Do you recall testifying that the conversation with Bill Bray took place at the hideout?
MJ: No.
P: Call your attention to your deposition on October 19, 1989, page 18, question at line 2: “What did you say to Bill Bray?” Answer, line 3: “I’m not sure.” Question on line 4: “Did you say anything to him?” Answer line 5: “In agreement, it was some words in agreement.” Line 7 “Was that in a face to face conversation?” Answer line 8, “Yes.” Question “Where?” Answer line 10, “At the hideout.” Does that refresh your recollection as to where your conversation with Bill Bray took place?
MJ: Yes.
P: And did it take place at the hideout?
MJ: It must have, if that’s what I said.
P: What did Bill Bray say to you about Raynard Jones in that conversation?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Same deposition, October 19th, 1989, line 7. Question, line 14: “What did you say to Bill and what did he say to you?” Answer line 16: “Well, what Bill said, the nature of this he’s a guy who’s never had a hit record and he’s trying to claim that he’s written a great song that type of thing.” Do you recall that question and giving that answer?
MJ: Kind of.
P: Did you agree with the statement made by Bill Bray?
MJ: Absolutely.
P: Why did you agree with this statement?
MJ: Why do I agree with his statement?
P: Why did you agree with his statement?
MJ: Because it’s true.
P: What part was true?
MJ: He knows in his heart that he did not write those songs. He knows that.
P: Mr. Jackson you testified under direct examination that Lionel Richie stated to you that you write songs quickly, you could write an album in one week. Do you recall that?
MJ: Yes.
P: When did you first receive the call from Quincy Jones with regard to creating a song that ultimately became “We Are The World”?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: At the time that you received the request from Mr. Jones, um... When did you begin work on your part of that composition?
MJ: I don’t remember working on it really.
P: What was your response, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: I don’t remember working on it really.
P: Did you work on music that ultimately became known as “We Are The World”?
MJ: Yes.
P: So you, ok. How soon after you received the call from Mr. Quincy Jones was it that you began that work?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: How long after the call from Mr. Quincy Jones did you contact anyone else concerning that work which would ultimately become known as “We Are The World”?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: How soon after you received the call from Quincy Jones was it that you contact Lionel Richie with regard to working on the song that would ultimately be called “We Are The World”?
L: I’m sorry, could you repeat the question?
Reporter: “Question: How soon after you received the call from Quincy Jones was it that you contact Lionel Richie with regard to working on the song that would ultimately be called “We Are The World”?
MJ: I don’t think I called Lionel.
P: Ok, so you didn’t call him, did he call you?
MJ: No, I think Quincy did.
P: Quincy called who?
MJ: Lionel Richie.
P: Did there come a time when you and Mr. Richie talked on the telephone about “We Are The World”, a song that would ultimately become known as “We Are The World”?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.
MJ: I don’t remember, sorry.
P: Ok. Did there come a time when you and Mr. Richie met to work on a song that would ultimately become known as “We Are The World”?
MJ: Yes.
P: When was that?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: How many times did you and Mr. Richie work on a song that would ultimately become known as
“We Are The World”?
MJ: I don’t remember for sure. I don’t remember.
P: Where did you and Mr. Richie work on the song that would ultimately become known as “We Are The World”?
MJ: My house.
P: Any place else?
MJ: Well, when teaching everybody all the different parts, how to sing the parts, all the different celebrities. A&M Studios, I think.
L: Mr. Jackson, how are you feeling?
MJ: Not good.
L: We’ll take a break.
[End of the deposition taken on Nov 8th, 1993.]
[Deposition resumes November 10th]
P: Where did you reside in June of 1977, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: 77... I’m not sure.
P: Have you ever lived in Encino, California?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. When did you first begin living in Encino, California?
MJ: Gee, I’m not sure.
P: Are you familiar with the residence in Encino, California on Hayvenhurst Avenue?
MJ: Yes.
P: Have you ever lived there?
MJ: Yes.
P: Do you know whether you lived there in June of 1977?
MJ: 77? I’m not sure.
P: Ok. But you do recall living at the address at the Hayvenhurst address, is that right?
MJ: Yes.
P: When did you cease living at the Hayvenhurst address?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Do you presently live at the Hayvenhurst address?
MJ: No.
P: Have you ever seen Raynard Jones at the house on Hayvenhurst Avenue?
MJ: I saw him at the gate one time as I remember, trying to get in.
P: My question to you: have you ever seen him in the house on Hayvenhurst Avenue?
MJ: I think one time he was inside, that I saw him.
P: Ok, so you’re answer is yes?
MJ: It’s foggy, I’m sorry.
P: So you’re answer is yes? You have seen him in your house on Hayvenhurst?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Mr. Jackson, do you recall your deposition being taken on October 19, 1989?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. Page 29 I call your attention to this question, line 1: “Has Raynard ever visited you at your home?” And your answer at line 2 “He’s been there”. Do you recall that question and that answer?
MJ: No.
P: How many times have you seen Raynard Jones at your house on Hayvenhurst Avenue?
MJ: Gee, I wouldn’t remember.
P: Have you ever listened to an audio cassette tape in the presence of Raynard Jones in any location?
MJ: No, not that I remember.
P: Is it that you don’t remember or that you have not?
MJ: I have not.
P: Have you ever seen Raynard Jones in the studio of your house on Hayvenhurst Avenue?
MJ: I don’t remember, sir.
P: Is it that you don’t remember or that you have not seen him in your studio of your house at Hayvenhurst Avenue?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Have you ever seen Raynard Jones at your home at Hayvenhurst Avenue accompanied by other people?
MJ: It’s foggy but I think he had a friend with him.
P: And when would that have been?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Do you know whether that would have been in June of 1977?
MJ: I really don’t remember.
P: Have you and the Jacksons ever conducted a musical tour called “The Victory Tour”?
MJ: Yes.
P: In what year was that?
MJ: 80 something.
P: Did “The Victory Tour” take place at any time during 1984?
MJ: I could have.
P: But is it your testimony that you do not know when “The Victory Tour” began?
MJ: I’m not positive, I’m bad with dates.
P: Do you know of a person by the name of Johnny Ray Nelson?
MJ: Yes.
P: And how do you know him?
MJ: I think he... Johnny Ray was my next door neighbor in Indiana.
P: Has Johnny Ray Nelson ever been an employer of yours?
MJ: No, not that I know of.
P: Is it your testimony that Johnny Ray Nelson has never been employed by you or is it that you don’t remember whether he was employed by you?
MJ: I’m not sure, sir.
P: Call your attention to page 83 of your deposition taken October 19, 1989 at line 25. Do you recall this question being asked, relative to Johnny Ray Nelson? “Has he ever worked for you?” Line 25, page 83. Page 84, line 1: “Yes.” Do you recall that question and do you recall giving that answer?
MJ: No.
P: Ok. Is it your testimony here today that the answer that you gave in response to that question on October 19, 1989 is not accurate?
MJ: I can’t remember what he did.
P: That’s not my question. My question to you is: are you contending that the answer you gave to the question in your deposition in October 1989, is that accurate?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Is it true that Johnny Ray Nelson travelled with “The Victory Tour”?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Is it true that during the period of 1983 through 1986, you received information that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music, is that true?
MJ: Repeat your question.
P: Is it true that during the period of 1983 through 1986, you received information that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music?
MJ: I’m not sure of the dates.
P: Did there come a time that you received information that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons was copying his music?
MJ: Yes.
P: When was that?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Was that before or after your move to California?
MJ: I think it was after we moved to California.
P: And from whom did you receive that information?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Did you ever receive that information from Johnny Ray Nelson?
MJ: What information?
P: That you and the Jacksons were copying Raynard Jones’ music?
MJ: Could you repeat your question, sir?
P: Did you receive information from Johnny Ray Nelson at any time during the period of 1983 to 1986 that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Is it that you don’t remember or that you did not receive such information from Johnny Ray Nelson?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: So you don’t remember whether you received information from Johnny Ray Nelson during the period of 1983 to 1986 that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music?
MJ: I don’t remember the dates. I don’t remember.
P: I’m not asking you... well, strike the dates. You said yourself that, uh, you had received information that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music and I asked you what year was that. Do you recall that?
MJ: What’s your question?
P: My question to you is you have testified here that you received information that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music, is that correct?
MJ: Yes.
P: My question to you is: when did you first, when did you receive that information?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: My question to you is from whom did you receive that information?
MJ: I don’t know.
P: My question to you is did Johnny Ray Nelson ever convey information to you that Raynard Jones was complaining that you and the Jacksons were copying his music?
MJ: No. Ray... Johnny Ray Nelson?
P: Yes.
MJ: No.
P: Ok. Mr. Jackson, I call your attention to page 82 of your deposition taken on October 19, 1989, question at page 82. “What people?” Answer beginning at line 9 “Well, one of the friends, one of our next door neighbors, who’s a guy named Ray Nelson. Even Ray Nelson said once we succeeded and left Gary, Indiana, we had hit after hit records, and he said Raynard would come to him and say ‘Don’t that sound like my sound? Don’t this part sound like the song I wrote?’ And he would try to say that we stole his song. We didn’t even write the songs, let alone take them.” Do you recall that question?
L: (inaudible)
P: Now, my question to you is, do you recall giving that question and responding as I have read to you at your deposition on October 19, 1989?
MJ: I do remember Johnny Ray Nelson being angry at Raynard... Johnny Ray saying something of the sort that Raynard is trying to take advantage of us because we became very successful and he didn’t and we took off into super stardom and he didn’t and so he was trying to find any excuse, anything to get back at us.
P: When did Mr. Johnny Ray Nelson tell you that?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: My question to you was did you... Do you recall the question that I asked relative to your deposition and the answer that I read to you, do you recall that question and giving the answer that I read to you?
MJ: Could you repeat that again?
P: The question at page 82, line 8. “What people?” Answer beginning at line 9 “Well, one of the friends, one of our next door neighbors, who’s a guy named Ray Nelson. Even Ray Nelson said once we succeeded and left Gary, Indiana, we had hit after hit records, and he said Raynard would come to him and say ‘Don’t that sound like my sound? Don’t this part sound like the song I wrote?’ and he would try to say that we stole his song. We didn’t even write the songs, let alone take them.” Do you recall that question and your and that part of your answer?
MJ: I remember.
P: Was that which I’ve read to you as part of your answer accurate at the time you gave it?
MJ: If I said it, it must be accurate.
P: Alright. Now, during “The Victory Tour”, Mr. Jackson, did you and Johnny Ray Nelson discuss Raynard Jones?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Is it that you don’t remember whether you discussed him or that you did not discuss Raynard Jones with Johnny Ray Nelson?
MJ: I don’t remember if his name was brought up or not.
P: Ok. Did you ever talk with Johnny Ray Nelson about Raynard Jones at the property on Hayvenhurst?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: Do you recall in your deposition on October 19, 1989 at page 83, line 7, the question: “Have you ever talked with Ray Nelson about Raynard Jones?” Your answer at line 9, answer: “Yeah.” Question at page 10: “But you don’t know when?” Answer: “No.” Question at page 12: “Do you know where?” Answer: “No, could have been Hayvenhurst.” Could you have talked with Johnny Ray Nelson about Raynard Jones at the Hayvenhurst property?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: So, that your answer that you gave me in your deposition, when you say could have been Hayvenhurst is was that accurate then, when you gave that answer?
MJ: It could have been.
P: Now, after moving to California, did you and your brothers perform in the Chicago area? At any time?
MJ: Yes.
P: Ok. Now when you performed in the Chicago area, would Raynard Jones visit you and or your brothers after your performance?
MJ: No. I just remember my security saying he would always try to get backstage and hassle the security to try to get in. That type of thing.
P: On the occasions that you and your brothers performed in the Chicago area did you ever see Mr. Jones after any of your concert sessions?
MJ: I don’t remember.
P: On the occasions that you performed in the Chicago area after your concert sessions, did Mr. Jones ever attempt to get you to listen to music?
MJ: Did he ever get me to listen to music?
P: Attempt or try to get you to listen to music.
MJ: Not that I know of.
P: When you would see Raynard Jones, strike that. You did see Raynard Jones in California, after moving there, is that correct?
MJ: I’m not sure.
P: Now, when you would see him, that is after you moved to California would he try to get you and your brothers to listen to music that he had written or that others had written?
MJ: I’m not positive.
[tape cuts]
P: Mr. Jackson, taking you back to your deposition of October 19, 1989, question at line 16: “Mr. Jackson, I’m going to show you what has been marked for purpose of identification exhibit 215 and ask you if you can identify that.” Answer: “Yes.” Question at line 21: “Can you identify the person in that photograph?” Answer line 23: “It’s me.” Do you recall those questions and your giving those answers at your deposition on October 19, 1989?
MJ: If I said it, it must be accurate but it had to be a better picture than that. You can’t see that.
P: Mr. Jackson, I’m going to show you what has been marked as the plaintiff exhibit number 216 which is a photo copy of a photograph and ask you if you can identify it.
MJ: Well, to me it looks like the great Al Green and Raynard Jones I think.
P: Is it that you think that the other person in the photograph is Raynard Jones or is the other person in the photograph, plaintiff’s exhibit 216, Raynard Jones?
M: It looks more like Raynard Jones, it’s hard to tell on the Al Green because again your pictures...
P: Does it appear to be a photograph including which includes Raynard Jones?
M: Yes.
[tape cuts]
A1: Mr. Jackson, can you tell me, uh, in the context of, of the, uh, the “Thriller” project, “We Are The World” project, what these various entities do, or whether they were involved in those projects at all. MJJ Production. What is MJJ Productions?
MJ: It’s my, it’s my office where they work with CBS Records or packaging, art design, answering letters, dealing with the fan clubs. It’s our way of working with the world from inside outside.
A1: So then MJJ Productions really promotes and distributes and has something to do with the product that you record, is that correct?
MJ: I’m sorry, I didn’t understand you?
A1: MJJ Productions has something to do with your services as a recording artist, and the product that you record and sell, is that right?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Warner Brothers Publications Inc. Do, have you... Do you know what that company is?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Can you tell us what that company is?
MJ: It’s a movie company, a record company like CBS/Sony.
A1: So, did Warner Brothers Publications Inc. have something to do with the projects “Thriller”, and “We Are The World”?
MJ: Not that I know of.
A1: Ok. And what about Warner Tamerlane Publishing Corporation?
MJ: I’m not sure on that.
A1: Ok. And USA for Africa Foundation, do you know what that is?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Can you tell us what that is?
MJ: It was an organization that was set up to distribute funds, relief funds to Africa for the project of “We Are The World” which is a song that myself and Lionel Richie wrote for Africa.
A1: So when...
MJ: We...
A1: I’m sorry, go ahead.
MJ: We organized all the celebrities together and sang the song for Africa. USA, United States for Africa.
A1: So then the foundation really was the beneficiary of the proceeds of the sale of the product “We Are The World”?
MJ: That...
A1: Is that a fair statement?
MJ: ... is the idea.
A1: And how about MIJAC Music?
MJ: I’m not sure if MIJAC exists anymore. It’s a publishing company. It was a publishing company.
A1: But you’re not sure if it exists now?
MJ: I’m not positive.
A1: Did it exist the time that “Thriller” was distributed as an album?
MJ: I think so.
A1: And the same is true when “We Are The World” was distributed?
MJ: I’m not sure, sir.
A1: Was MIJAC or is MIJAC your publishing company? Music publishing company?
MJ: Is it my publishing company?
A1: Was it when it was in existence or whether it still is in existence?
MJ: Oh, yes. Yes.
A1: Your publishing company?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Ok. And you don’t know whether it still exists?
MJ: I’m not sure.
A1: Do you know when MIJAC Music was formed?
MJ: No.
A1: But when it was in existence, it was wholly owned by you?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Did you have a publishing company before MIJAC?
MJ: I think MIJAC was the first one.
A1: Ok. Do you have another publishing company now?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What is the name of that publishing company?
MJ: Well, there is ATV music.
A1: ATV music?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Ok. And it’s a publishing company?
MJ: Yes.
A1: I’ll try not to repeat some of the things that have been asked to you. Was there a time that you were the lead singer of the Jackson 5?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And was that during the time that the Jackson 5 was under a recording contract to Motown?
MJ: We were the Jackson 5 before signing with Motown.
A1: But you were the lead singer during the time that the Jackson 5 was signed to Motown?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And then, was there a time that the Jackson 5 became The Jacksons?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Were you the lead singer of the group known as The Jacksons?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Would the time when the Jackson 5 became known as the Jacksons, would that have been around 1976? 77?
MJ: I’m not sure.
A1: Was there a time when The Jacksons were signed under a recording agreement with CBS?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And were you still a member of the Jacksons at that time?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was there a time when you became a... just strike that. Was there a time when you recorded separately from The Jacksons under contract with CBS?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Let me show you a document and ask you if you’ve ever seen it before. Could you tell us what that document is?
MJ: Looks like a recording contract.
A1: Would you, uh... What is the date in the right hand corner page 1?
MJ: November 1st, 1978.
A1: Ok. Would it be fair, would it be fair to say that that’s an agreement between The Jackson 5 Inc. and Quincy Jones Productions?
MJ: No?
A1: Have you ever seen that before?
MJ: I probably have but I don’t remember, I sign a million papers.
A1: I’m sure. Let me ask you to turn to the last page. Do you recognize the signatures on the right side underneath the Jackson 5 Inc.?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Can you tell us what, who signatures those are?
MJ: The first, the first one look like Joseph Jackson. It’s kinda hard to see. The second one looks like Michael Jackson.
A1: Does that look like your signature?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Ok, now...
MJ: The other one looks like Quincy Jones.
A1: Ok, thank you. Go back to page 1, paragraph number 1. Could you read the last sentence in that paragraph please?
MJ: We shall provide that Epic shall not have any other person remix or...
A1: No, I’m sorry page 1, paragraph 1, number 1, last sentence.
MJ: Paragraph 1, number 1, the last sentence?
A1: Right.
MJ: It’s right here, shouldn’t it?
A1: Starts out ‘The time...’
MJ: Oh, paragraph, I’m sorry. ‘The time and place of recording such masters, the selections of compositions to be embodied thereon, and all individuals rendering services in the connection with the recording of the masters, should be mutually agreed upon by you and artist.’
A: Ok, now, was this the agreement that was signed with Quincy Jones Productions for the production of your first solo album? Do you recall, Mr. Jackson... that this was the and I’m... I’m interested in refreshing your recollection about the time...
MJ: Ok?
A1: November 1st 1978.
MJ: Ok?
A1: Would this have been about the time when you signed to do your first solo album?
MJ: I’m not sure.
A1: You’re not sure?
MJ: No.
A1: Ok. Do you remember what year it was that your brothers and you signed with CBS as The Jacksons?
MJ: No.
A1: Now, pick up that agreement again, and I want to look at paragraph. You’ve been in the record business for quite sometime, have you not?
MJ: Quite some time.
A1: And you understand that second sentence in paragraph 1 to say, that when it says ‘selection of compositions’. Do you know what that means?
MJ: Sure.
A1: What does that mean?
MJ: The selections, choosing the songs.
A1: Right. Then that means. Does that mean that this agreement says that the choice of the right to choose the songs is between you and Quincy Jones mutually?
MJ: Mutual agreement, yes.
A1: Right, ok...
MJ: We do it together.
A1: Alright. Now, I’m going to ask you to do one more thing with this document, then we, we can leave it alone. Look down at the bottom of the first page, its paragraph 2, the last sentence, right after the part that’s been inked out.
MJ: Yes?
A1: Could you read that, please?
MJ: ’We shall provide that Epic shall not have any other person remix or reedit any masters produced by you here under without first providing with a reasonable opportunity to perform such remixing and or reediting as Epic shall require.’
A1: Alright, now what do you understand that to mean?
MJ: Well, let me read it again... Oh, it says without providing a reasonable opportunity to perform such remixing and or reediting as Epic shall require, it’s just saying that Epic, that that it’s between Quincy and myself to remix or reedit the songs on the album. And if any other outside person comes in and wants to work on the album it has to be an agreement with us.
A1: Alright. Now, in your experience in the record business, would it be fair to say that, that under the agreement, Epic would have final approval on the mix? On the edit?
A: Objection.
A1: Doesn’t the record company always have the right to approve the mix and the edit?
A: Objection.
A1: Final master?
MJ: Not the final.
A1: When you deliver a master to a record company, can they reject it?
MJ: Can they what?
A1: Reject it.
MJ: They can reject it.
A1: That’s fine, that’s all I wanted to know.
MJ: I don’t... I don’t get what this has to do with...
A1: Now under the first... The Jacksons’ first contract with CBS as recording artists, do you recall whether or not the Jacksons had the right to under that contract to provide or to supply music or to produce music a certain number of songs for album?
MJ: On the Epic contract?
A1: Yes.
MJ: I’m not positive but I think we had the right to three songs per album.
A1: Do you recall who produced the first CBS album on the Jacksons?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Who was that?
MJ: Gamble and Huff.
A1: And you recall how many tunes, your saying 3, that you, that The Jacksons had the right to provide on that album?
MJ: I sang 3 that The Jacksons...
A1: Did you just say 3 or?
MJ: In writing?
A1: Yes.
MJ: In writing 3, yes, that, me and my brothers I’m not positive but that’s I think.
A1: Alright, you say in writing but is there a difference then? You’re saying that the contract provided that you had 3, but in reality you only had uh you had another number? Is that what you’re saying now?
MJ: No, it was the way you worded it that confused me.
A1: Well, what I’m trying to find out is on the first album of The Jacksons, under the CBS contract, how many tunes did you have the right to provide on that album? Do you remember?
MJ: I think it was 3.
A1: You think it was 3? Now, did that mean that you had the right write 3 turns, find 3 tunes from somebody else or what does that mean?
MJ: Write 3 tunes.
A1: Ok. And did The Jacksons write 3 tunes on that album?
MJ: Yes, we did.
A1: Do you recall the name of that album? The first album?
MJ: I think... I’m not sure.
A1: Would it have been “Goin’ Places”?
MJ: It could have been.
A1: Is that the first name?
MJ: Or “Destiny”. I’m not sure.
A1: Now, how did if you had the contractual right to have so many songs on the album, let’s say 2 or 3, do you recall how many songs that you guys wrote for that album?
MJ: I don’t remember.
A1: You don’t remember. Normally in, in your experience in the business, if you’re gonna have so many tunes on an album, how many... How many songs would you put together for the final selection?
MJ: How many songs would we write for the album?
A1: If you had the right to provide 2 or 3, how many songs do you think you would have normally put together?
MJ: Oh, gee, 15.
A1: Now, did of those let’s assume 15 were all those written by the Jacksons?
MJ: Yes.
A: Objection.
A1: And no outside writers?
MJ: No outside writers.
A1: Do you recall a tune called “Blues Away”?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Who wrote that?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Was that solely by yourself or with your brother Randy?
MJ: Solely by myself as I remember.
A1: How about a song called “Different Kind Of Lady”?
MJ: What about it?
A1: Do you recall that song?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Who wrote it?
MJ: I think it was credited as The Jacksons.
A1: Who wrote it?
MJ: Gee... Jackie, myself, Randy, Tito, I think we all wrote it. We all wrote it.
A1: By the way, did you guys have a publishing company at that time?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What was the name of that publishing company?
MJ: I’m not sure.
A1: Was the publishing company owned by the Jackson 5?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was “Blues Away” the first song that you had ever recorded, written that was recorded?
MJ: No.
A1: Had you written songs previously that were recorded? Before “Blues Away”?
MJ: Oh, yes.
A1: Can you name some of those song that you had written, and were recorded? And released?
MJ: That’s different, that’s different.
A: Well, let me go back then. Was “Blues Away” the first song that you had written, that was recorded and released?
MJ: Yes.
A: Well, we saved ourselves a lot of time.
MJ: We sure did!
A1: Now, do you recall the name of the second album that was recorded by the Jacksons under CBS agreement?
MJ: Gee, I’m not positive. I don’t know if it was “Triumph” or “Destiny” or “Goin’ Places.” I’m not sure what order.
A1: Do you recall that, were all the songs provided for the album by the Jacksons? I mean the second CBS album, do you understand my question?
MJ: What’s the name of the album?
A1: Well, what if I told you it was “Destiny”, would that sound inaccurate?
MJ: I’m not positive.
A1: Alright. For the “Destiny” album and do you recall how many songs were there any songs provided by outside writers on “Destiny”?
MJ: I’m not sure.
A1: Do you recall who produced “Destiny”?
MJ: The Jacksons produced “Destiny”.
A1: Would it be safe to assume that if The Jacksons produced then they had a right to provide all the songs on the album?
MJ: I’m not sure.
A1: Do you know a woman named Regina Hooks?
MJ: I’ve heard of the name, but I can’t place the face.
A1: Did she provide any songs for the “Destiny” album?
MJ: Not that I know of.
A1: Did she provide any songs for any of the Jacksons albums?
MJ: I don’t even know who she is.
A1: If she had provided a song that was used on one of the albums and it was released, would she have been given credit? Is it speculation, Mr. Jackson, to assume that if someone wrote a song for one of your albums, that they would get credit?
MJ: Of course they would get credit.
A1: Then it’s not speculation then is it?
MJ: If someone wrote a song, we would be honest and give them credit.
A1: Now, in fact it’s your policy, right? That, Mr. Jackson, whenever a musician or someone provides help on a song, a bridge or something like that in the arrangement, they get credit on it, don’t they?
MJ: [nodding]
A1: Now, the other day you testified that you’ve written 30... You written 30, written, published 30 to 40 tunes as a songwriter, is that right?
MJ: Something like that. I don’t know the exact number. I’ve never counted. I don’t count them.
A1: Now, when you write a song, that song and it’s not co-written by anybody else, with anyone else or collaborated with, it’s written solely by you, your independent work...
MJ: I’m sorry, I didn’t understand.
A1: Is a song that you write, that you take sole credit for...
MJ: Yes.
A1: Your independent creation, by you and you only...
MJ: Yes?
A1: And you don’t, do you include common musical phrases in your songs that you write?
MJ: Common musical phrases?
A1: Do you know what that is?
MJ: Yeah, but I don’t know if you know what that means.
A1: Well, let me ask you, why don’t you tell us what it is?
MJ: I don’t know, I...
A1: What’s a common musical phrase?
MJ: A common musical phrase?
A1: Yes.
MJ: A musical phrase could mean a note, a tone.
A1: Have you ever heard of the term a common musical phrase before?
MJ: Yes, but the way you put it in your question it was different, so I wasn’t sure if I understood what you meant.
A1: Ok, well then let me ask you, could you tell us what a common musical phrase is?
MJ: A common musical phrase... [sings: Heeee]
A1: That’s a common musical phrase?
MJ: That can be a common musical phrase.
A1: Did you ever hear of the term scenes - afaire?
MJ: Pardon?
A1: Scenes afaire. Have you ever heard of that term before?
MJ: Scenes... Spell it?
A1: S. C. E. N. E. S.
MJ: Yeah?
A1: Little line.
MJ: Right?
A1: Afaire.
MJ: Spell it?
A1: A. F. A. I. R. E. Have you ever heard of that term before?
MJ: Scenes afaire... No, I never heard that.
A1: Ok. Now, let me ask you this question again. I’m, I’m not sure your answer was clear to me. Maybe, maybe I missed it. When you write a song, that’s your sole song, that you take credit for, by yourself...
MJ: Yes?
A1: Do you use, is that song independently created by you?
MJ: All the...
A1: Do you understand my question?
MJ: Absolutely.
A1: Ok.
MJ: Songs that I take credit for, on my albums, that say written by Michael Jackson, are written by Michael Jackson.
A1: And Michael Jackson alone, right?
MJ: Michael Jackson alone, I wouldn’t cheat anybody out of credit.
A1: I’m not suggesting that you cheated anything out of anybody, sir.
MJ: I’m an honest person.
A1: I’m just asking you a question. I’m going to ask you a question, give you a list of songs and I’m going to ask you some questions about each one of them.
MJ: Ok.
A1: Have you ever heard of a song called “She’s Not A Girl”?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Who wrote it?
MJ: I wrote it.
A1: Released?
MJ: Pardon?
A1: Was it recorded and released?
MJ: It was recorded but never released. It’s a demo.
A1: Pardon?
MJ: It’s a demo that I did, I think at the Encino house.
A1: Do you know what year?
MJ: No.
A1: How about the song called “You Ain't Gonna Change Nothin’”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: No.
A1: How about “Lucy Is In Love With Linus”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Who’s The Girl With Her Hair Down”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Lonely Man”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Going To Rio”?
MJ: Going where?
A1: “Going To Rio”?
MJ: “Going To Rio” I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: Do you recall when you wrote it?
MJ: No, but it was before “Thriller”, before “Off The Wall”.
A1: “Tomboy”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: Know when you wrote it?
MJ: I wrote “Tomboy” for the “Bad” album, that was after “Thriller” so I don’t know the dates.
A1: “Buffalo Bill”?
MJ: “Buffalo Bill” was written after I wrote “Billie Jean” so that was written after the “Thriller” album. Yes.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Al Capone”?
MJ: “Al Capone” was written after the “Thriller” album, never released. I wrote that.
A1: “Michael McCeller”?
MJ: “Michael McCeller”?
A1: Yes.
MJ: How do you know about “Michael McCeller”? I wrote “Michael McCeller”.
A1: You wrote it?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Thank You For Life”?
MJ: “Thank You For Life”. I wrote that.
A1: Do you know when?
MJ: “Thank You For Life” was written, boy... Way before “Off The Wall”. I don’t know the date but it had to be around. If I could guess, would you like for me to guess?
A1: No, we don’t want you to guess.
MJ: Ok, then, I can’t say.
A1: Was it ever released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Much Too Soon”?
MJ: I wrote “Much Too Soon”.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “What a Lonely Way To Go”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Do you know when?
MJ: Before “Off The Wall”.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Who Do You Know”?
MJ: I wrote “Who Do You Know”.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “You Are a Liar”?
MJ: I wrote “You Are a Liar”.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Cry”?
MJ: I wrote “Cry”.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Make a Wish”?
MJ: I can’t recall that one. Just give me a minute. I can’t recall that one.
A1: “Crack Kills”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Free”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Fly Away”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Children’s Hour”, “The Children’s Hour”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Is that one released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Baby Smiles”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “A Baby Smiles”?
MJ: I wrote that one, same one.
A1: “Sister Sue”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Little Susie”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Tragedy Of a Cheerleader”?
MJ: “Tragedy Of a Cheerleader”... I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Get Around”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Little Girls”?
MJ: I can’t recall that one.
A1: “In The Valley”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Hold on a second. The “Little Girls”, I do remember. Yes, I wrote that one. Never released.
A1: And “In The Valley”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Red Eye”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “I Forgive You”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Why Shy”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “I Have This Love Of Me”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Was it released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Llama Lola”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “California Grass”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Kentucky”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Do you know when you wrote that one?
MJ: 70 something but I don’t remember exactly.
A1: “Someone Put Your Hand Down”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: That one had an interesting story. I wrote the original and then it was changed in which I co-wrote it with Teddy Riley and it was released but through some type of Pepsi contest, a limited edition of it was released.
A1: Do you know what year that was?
MJ: Think it was last year, wasn’t it? I think.
A1: “Do You Know Where Your Children Are”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Bad Girl”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Lonely Bird”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Smooth Criminal”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What album?
MJ: The “Bad” album.
A1: “PYT, the original version”?
MJ: I wrote that one with Greg Phillinganes.
A1: Do you know what year that was?
MJ: No.
A1: “Cheater”?
MJ: I wrote that one, I wrote that one. I co-wrote that one.
A1: Was it released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “People Have To Make Some Kind Of Joke”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: Was that co-written?
MJ: I don’t think so, I’m not positive. It could have been co-written with my brother but I’m not positive. I think I wrote that one myself.
A1: “Love Never Felt So Good”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: Did it have a co-writer?
MJ: Give me a minute to think. I’m not positive on that. There could have been a co-writer on that.
A1: Would it have been Paul Anka?
MJ: Could have been, yes.
A1: “Alright Now”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Solely or co-written?
MJ: I think I wrote that with my brother.
A1: Was it ever released?
MJ: No.
A1: “Scared Of The Moon”?
MJ: Yes.
A1: “Scared Of The Moon”?
MJ: Never been released, co-written.
A1: With Buzz Cohen?
MJ: Yes.
A1: “Neverland’s Landing”?
MJ: Co-written.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “We Are The Ones”?
MJ: I wrote that one.
A1: Co-written or written solely?
MJ: Solely.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “What Was Your Life”?
MJ: “What’s Your Life”. It’s called “What’s Your Life”.
A1: Ok.
MJ: I wrote that with my brother Jermaine.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Fantasy”?
MJ: Co-written with my brother.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “The Sky Is The Limit”?
MJ: Co-written.
A1: With whom?
MJ: My brother.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Saved By The Bell”?
MJ: Co-written with my brother.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Chicago 1945”?
MJ: Co-written.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Make Or Break”?
MJ: Co-written.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Turning Me Off”?
MJ: I wrote that, co-written.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Sunset Driver”?
MJ: Co-written.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: “Far Far Away”?
MJ: I wrote that.
A1: Released?
MJ: Never released.
A1: Did you have a co-writer on that one?
MJ: Not that I can remember.
A1: “State Of Shock”?
MJ: Released, co-written.
A1: “Get On The Floor”?
MJ: Released, co-written.
A1: Let me ask you about “PYT”. Well, before I ask you that, of these songs that I’ve just asked you about that have never been released, do you recall when how far back they go in terms of time, when you wrote them?
MJ: Some of them.
A1: What would you say is the furthest one that goes the one that goes back the furthest?
MJ: “Thank You For Life”.
A1: What year?
MJ: 73, 74 something like that.
A1: Now. Were these songs, when you wrote them, when you go back from them time to time? Do you understand my question, Mr. Jackson?
MJ: When I wrote them would I go back to them from time to time?
A1: Yeah, let me ask you this. What form would they when you write them. What form would they be in? Would they be in the form of lead sheets? Would they be in the form of notes, or would they would they be on a cassette?
MJ: In writing, do you mean pen to paper?
A1: Right.
MJ: Um, God, I’ve written things on toilet paper. It could be anything.
A1: Alright.
MJ: Whatever’s the closest around.
A1: Alright now.
MJ: I’ve written on walls.
A1: The other day you testified that you when you write your hum songs or the rhythms into a tape.
MJ: That’s right.
A1: I’m asking you how, the songs that I’ve just read to you, that have been not that are not released, have not been released...
MJ: That’s right?
A1: Do those are those maintained in the form of a cassette?
MJ: Sometimes.
A1: Sometimes. Of the songs I just read to you, that were unreleased how many of those would you say that are on cassette form?
MJ: Most of them are on cassettes.
A1: And where are those maintained? Are those maintained in your collection?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Now, the one song that I, we just talked about, that was just done last year, if you recalled. For a Pepsi project, or somebody’s project if I could lay my hands on it...
MJ: ”Someone Put Your Hand Out”.
A1: I believe it’s called “Someone Put Your Hand Down”.
MJ: Hand out.
A1: Right and that was original was changed you say, it was co-written, it was co-written with Teddy Riley?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was it originally co-written with Teddy Riley?
MJ: No.
A1: So then was it, was it in that form of cassette form and you went back and you pulled it out and you dressed it up with Teddy and you just did things to it?
MJ: Yes, I wrote it originally years ago then pulled it out and Teddy loved it. I loved it and we made some changes, just changed the verse and I gave him co-writers credit.
A1: Ok. Now, we’ve talked a lot about your collection, let’s try to nail this down. Is that the collection that you’ve maintained at your home for a very long time? Do you understand my question?
MJ: Collection I’ve maintained a long time?
A1: Yeah, do you understand my question?
MJ: Repeat your question?
A1: This, the collection that we’ve talked about...
MJ: These songs?
A1: Right, these songs.
MJ: These songs?
A1: Right and the cassettes that you’ve written that you go back to from time to time we loosely called it a collection, it was your choice of words, a collection. I’m asking you, were these songs maintained at your home? One central location?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Mr. Jackson, let me read you another list of songs and ask you, pretty much the same kind of questions whether they were released and what other issues may come upon each one of them. The song, “Blues Away” we just covered but just for the sake of putting in its own little pigeonhole with the others. Do you recall when “Blues Away” was released?
MJ: No.
A1: You don’t recall when “Blues Away” was released?
MJ: No, I don’t.
A1: But that was the first song that you had written that was released, right? Is that correct?
MJ: Yes.
A1: “Don’t Stop Til’ You Get Enough” was that too released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Do you recall what year?
MJ: It was on the “Off The Wall” album, so seventy-nine? Was it?
A1: Did Greg Philliganes do something on that song?
MJ: Yes, the bridge [sings] He created that.
A1: Now, ok. Was he given credit for that on that, on that album, on that, that song?
MJ: Yes, he was.
A1: What was that, co arranging, arranging, co-written?
MJ: Arranging, just arranging.
A1: “Working Day And Night”?
MJ: What about it?
A1: When was that released?
MJ: That’s the “Off The Wall” album again. I think 79, I’m not sure.
A1: “Wanna Be Startin’ Somethin”, was that written by you?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What year was that released?
MJ: That was for the “Thriller” album, so that would be I think 83.
A1: “Billie Jean”, was that written by you?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And was that released?
MJ: Yes, “Billie Jean” was released.
A1: What album was that?
MJ: “Thriller” album.
A1: “Beat It” - is that released?
MJ: That was released.
A1: Written by you?
MJ: I wrote “Beat It” also, yes.
A1: What album was that?
MJ: That was the “Thriller” album.
A1: “The Girl Is Mine”?
MJ: Yes?
A1: You wrote that?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And was that released?
MJ: That was released.
A1: Which album?
MJ: “Thriller” album, first single. Duet.
A1: “I Just Can’t Stop Loving You”?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was it written by you?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What album?
MJ: “Bad” album.
A1: And “Bad”? Was that written by you?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What album?
MJ: “Bad” album.
A1: Do you recall the year?
MJ: No.
A1: Beg your pardon?
MJ: No.
A1: “The Way You Make Me Feel”, did you write that?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What album?
MJ: “Bad.”
A1: “Dirty Diana”?
MJ: I wrote “Dirty Diana”.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: On what album?
MJ: “Bad”.
A1: “Speed Demon”, did you write that?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What album did that appear on?
MJ: “Bad” album.
A1: “Liberian Girl”, did you write that?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: What album?
MJ: “Bad” album.
A1: “Muscles”, did you write that?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was that released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: By whom?
MJ: Diana Ross.
A1: What year, do you know?
MJ: I don’t remember.
A1: “Another Part Of Me”?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Did you write that?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And was that released?
MJ: Yes.
A: What album, do you recall?
MJ: It was first released for “Captain EO” which was a short film. I think it, I think it was for the “Bad” album.
A1: Was there a later version of “PYT?”
MJ: Yes.
A1: Do you know who wrote that?
MJ: James Ingram and Quincy Jones.
A1: Did you get co-writers credit on that one?
MJ: No, cause I didn’t write that one. I wrote the original with Greg Phillinganes.
A1: What happened to the original?
MJ: Quincy wanted a fast song, mine was mid tempo.
A1: Now, I’m going to ask you from the following songs and I’ll read them rather quickly I’ll ask you one question about them. Let me read them first. “Cheater”, “People Have To Make Some Kind Of Joke”, “Love Never Felt So Good”, “Alright Now”, “Scared Of The Moon”, “Neverland Landing”, “We Are The Ones”, “What’s Your Life”, “Fantasy”, “The Sky Is The Limit”, “Saved By The Bell”, “Chicago 145”...
MJ: 1945.
A1: 1945. I was gonna say, 145?
MJ: Mhm.
A1: 1945. Of those songs and excuse me, let me add “Sunset Driver”, “Far Far Away”, and “State of Shock”. Are those songs in the portfolio of a publishing company? Do you understand?
MJ: The first time you asked me about “Far Far Away”, did I tell you I didn’t remember it?
A1: You said you couldn’t remember whether you wrote that yourself or if it was co-written.
MJ: I remember it now, it was co-written.
A1: Do you know the publishing company who has those songs?
MJ: No.
A1: Is it your publishing company?
MJ: Yes, but I don’t know the name.
A1: Have you ever written a song called “Centipede”?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Do you know when?
MJ: I don’t remember.
A1: You don’t remember what year?
MJ: No. I co-wrote it.
A1: With whom?
MJ: With whom?
A1: Yes.
MJ: John Barnes.
A1: Was it released?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Did your sister, Maurine sing it?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Do you know a woman named Joyce McRay?
MJ: Joyce McRay, I think so.
A1: Did she ever work for you?
MJ: I don’t think so.
A1: Did she ever work for Motown?
MJ: I don’t think so.
A1: Pardon me?
MJ: I don’t think so.
A1: Do you have a song in your collection, about that time, by Sam and Dave called “I’m A Soul Man”?
MJ: I don’t know if I bought that or not. I buy a lot of records but I don’t know if that was one of the ones or not.
A1: Do you know whether you bought “I’m A Soul Man”, about the time when you wrote “Centipede" or not?
MJ: Gee... I wouldn’t know.
A1: I beg your pardon?
MJ: I wouldn’t know.
A1: Ok. You ever hear of a song called “You Were There”?
MJ: “You Were There”? Sure, I wrote it with Buzz Cohen for Sammy Davis Jr.
A1: Was that for the 60th Anniversary Celebration for Sammy Davis?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Do you remember when you and Buzz Cohen wrote it?
MJ: No.
A1: Was the answer, was that no?
MJ: Yes.
A1: You don’t remember?
MJ: No, I don’t.
A1: You don’t remember what year?
MJ: No.
A1: Do you remember where you and he were, when you wrote that song?
MJ: Yes. I don’t know the exact location. It was a place like the Shrine Auditorium... Could have been the Shrine, I’m not sure.
A1: You wrote it with him, at the Shrine?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Is that also in the portfolio of your publishing company?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Now, when you began work on your first solo album which was later to be called “Off The Wall” did you have a stock pile of songs that you had written to be submitted for that album?
MJ: For the album?
A1: “Off The Wall”?
MJ: Did I have a stock pile of songs that I’ve written for the album “Off The Wall”?
A1: That you had written, that you were submitting for the album?
MJ: When I, when I write songs for an album for instance I’ll write 50 to 60 songs for just one album just for 9 songs, you know and I’ll pick from those. So...
A1: Did you write 50 to 60 songs for “Off The Wall”?
MJ: Yes, a lot of songs.
A1: Can you think of any?
MJ: You named a lot of them.
A1: A lot of them were on the list that I named?
MJ: Some.
A1: Some of them?
MJ: Some of them were.
A1: How many of those; what was the procedure that you and Quincy Jones employed to select out songs for that album?
MJ: I’d write the song, do a demo and play it for him. He’d say if he’d like it or not and most likely he’d love it. And we would record it.
A1: How many songs did you have on the album “Off The Wall”?
MJ: I’m not sure, but I think just 9.
A1: How many of those were yours, that you wrote?
MJ: “Don’t Stop Til you Get Enough”, “Get On The Floor”, “Working Day And Night”. 3 or 4, I’m not sure.
A1: How many did of, of 3 or 4, strike that. On the “Off The Wall” album, how many of your songs did Quincy that you had written did you and Quincy consider for that album?
MJ: I don’t remember.
A1: A moment ago you said you’d write 50 songs, about 50 songs for... on a 9 song album?
MJ: That’s right.
A1: Did you, did you present or consider with Quincy, 50 songs for that album?
MJ: No.
[tape cuts]
A1: Did you and Quincy consider songs by outside writers on the “Off The Wall” album?
MJ: Oh, boy... Yes, “She’s Out Of My Life” was written by Tom Bahler who I’ve known for years and years. It’s an old friend.
A1: Any other outside writers?
MJ: Paul McCartney. That’s all I can think of.
A1: Did Rod Temperton submit some tunes for that album?
MJ: Oh, yeah. He wrote “Off The Wall”, “Rock With You”, “Burn This Disco Out”, something like that. I can’t think of any others.
A1: When did you first meet Rod Temperton?
MJ: I don’t remember.
A1: You don’t remember?
MJ: No. I meet so many people.
A1: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you?
MJ: I meet so many people.
A1: Was, well, you did meet Rod Temperton during the course of the “Off The Wall” project, did you know?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Was that the first time you met him?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Would that have been sometime in 1978, 79?
MJ: I’m not sure.
[tape cuts]
A1: Mr. Jackson, between the “Off The Wall” album and the “Thriller” album, did you meet with Rod Temperton in a hotel in London?
MJ: Hotel in London? Sorry, I don’t remember that.
A1: Now, Rod Temperton submitted some songs for the “Thriller” album, is that correct?
MJ: Yes, he did.
A1: Do you remember how many?
MJ: Oh, gosh. ”Thriller”, “Baby Be Mine”, “Lady In My Life”. I think jut those three. Unless there is something I’m leaving out.
A1: Was there a song called “Rolling In the Dice”?
MJ: Yes. “Roll In The Dice”, that... We did a demo on at Hayvenhurst but we never released it, we didn’t think it, we didn’t think it was strong enough.
A1: Was there another song called “Hot Street”?
MJ: Yeah. I like “Hot Street”, I love that one. But they didn’t. Quincy and Rod didn’t think it was good enough. I thought it was wonderful.
A1: Now then, do you recall when Mr. Temperton first played the songs for you, that he had brought for the album the “Thriller” album?
MJ: Do I what?
A1: Do you recall when, the year that Mr. Temperton presented the songs to you? For the “Thriller” album?
MJ: No, I don’t.
A1: Do you recall where it was that he brought the songs for the “Thriller” album?
MJ: Yes.
A1: Where were you?
MJ: Encino house.
A1: At your residence?
MJ: Yes, my studio.
A1: And who was present?
MJ: Quincy Jones, Rod Temperton, Bruce Swedien and myself.
A1: Who’s Bruce Swedien?
MJ: Bruce Swedien is the engineer, the technician who runs the, the audio system, the board.
A1: And do you recall how long this process took?
MJ: Gee... several hours.
A1: Could the whole process have taken about two days? Now, let me rephrase that... let me rephrase that. What did, what did Mr. Temperton do when he and Quincy came to your studio to present the songs?
MJ: He played on cassette which we went into my... I think it was Quincy’s car or my van and cause we don’t have a cassette machine system in my studio but he came with a keyboard and in the keyboard it’s his performances of the different sounds he can midi those sounds. And put them up on tape, on the 24 track and put them on tape and it was a way of testing to see if I liked the songs or not, with my voice trying different harmonies, trying the songs. Like I said we did “Thriller” which was called [sings: “Gimme Some Starlight, Starlight Sun”]. That’s how it went, so, it was a way of just testing you know, what I wanted to do.
A1: Alright, now. Ok, now, he laid the structure of the very songs out in front of you and you recorded, you sung each one of them, is that correct?
MJ: Yes.
A1: And among the songs you sang was the one “Starlight”?
MJ: Right.
A1: Did you make any changes to that “Starlight”?
MJ: Yeah, the lyrics and the title and we added Vincent Price’s voice. We changed it into “Thriller”. Well, he did ask me, which would I like better to be a song about you know ‘let the sunshine’ in type of thing or ‘thriller’ and I thought, kids would enjoy something more fun like “Thriller”. So, we went with the “Thriller” idea.
A1: Did you change, did you change “Starlight” musically?
MJ: Yeah, somewhat. Musically it was the same but we added other sounds and things like that.
A1: After you made the changes, do you know whether or not Mr. Temperton created a lead sheet for what was now “Thriller”?
MJ: I don’t think he reads music, he doesn’t...
A1: Did...
MJ: He doesn’t use a lead sheet...
A1: Did Quincy Jones create a lead sheet for what was now “Thriller”?
MJ: I don’t, I don’t think so. At least I didn’t see one.
A1: Alright, did you, you sang the other songs as well? In addition to “Starlight”?
